Interests of transparency.

[Aginoth]

People on the boards occasionally break the rules. That's a given.

Members occasionally get banned or reprimanded.

But we as members really don't see any transparency in the banning/moderation process.

I would like to suggest that in the interest of showing that all members are treated fairly that any reprimanded or banned member is named and if relevant the length of ban announced.  A brief reason for the ban or reprimand and how that relates to the Terms and Conditions of the Forum would also probably help assist transparency.

This would allow the membership of the forum to be able to see that everyone is treated equally within the terms and conditions.  It would also name and shame the offening member and hopefully lead to their improving of their self-moderation skills.

I would suggest a locked Sticky thread within the feedback board would be the place for it, with any offences listed for a set period of say 3 to 6 months.

I have moderated many forums myself over the last 10 years and have found this kind of system to be useful, especially in curbing the excesses of repeat offenders.

[Nicknackwack]

I think naming and shaming is very subjective simply because if a PHO Member posts a bad or offensive comment then it can be cancelled out by posting a good or nice comment by the same PHO Member. I like to take the balanced view 

[Aginoth]

I think naming and shaming is very subjective simply because if a PHO Member posts a bad or offensive comment then it can be cancelled out by posting a good or nice comment by the same PHO Member. I like to take the balanced view 

yes it is, but I have seen this work as a means of encouraging Self-moderation, no-one wants to be shamed in such a manner, and so it can lead to a modicum of thought before posting something against the T&Cs

[Joan J]

I think name and shame would be good because it would stop the speculation if someone disappears for a bit, and all the drama of " Anyone heard from whoever" when lots of people are in touch of Facebook,phone etc.  The silly mind games are a source of irriatation.  Speaking as someone who has been banned - I think the naughty list is a good idea

I don't agree with Nicks point that an offensive or or bad comment can be cancelled out by the member posting a good or nice comment - I like to think that we post what we mean to say or are trying to get across, what is annoying is when people do not agree with a post, not because they don't like what has been written, but because they don't like who wrote it!!

[Tim_]

Dave

The Majority of Bans are issued for Spammers and Advertisers, I don't think your idea would make any difference to those issues and TBH would create unecessary work for us Mods.
If anyone feels the Mods are being unfair they can always talk to the administrator, ie The Singing Detective.

I do think there are issues with naming and shaming though  


Tim

[Jackie]

I think it's a great idea. 

Personally, I think the banning process is too subjective, this would give members a chance to see exactly how objective it is   

[darrenc]

If anyone feels the Mods are being unfair they can always talk to the administrator, ie The Singing Detective.



Tim

i think its a great idea dave and would also promote self moderation with moderators too with using the ban button

and tim i have to disagree im afraid as i have tried to contact the administrator regarding a mod being unfair but i didnt recieve any reply

[Soldersplash]

Great idea Dave, I support that 100%

Cheers,
Daniel.

[Joan J]

I really do not wish to be personal here and I think Dave's idea is a good one, but Darren, you really do seem to have a problem with the MOD's and use every opportunity to have a go at them.  Many of us have behaved inappropriately at times, and if you are not happy then you report it - the MOD's are people , just like us with personalities , ideals and opnions - I have to admit that I have been in heated debate with the MOD's at times - but when they are posting - they are themselves - I like to think we are all adult enough to accept that they may make mistakes, like the rest of us.  It's  tough job that I would not want to do.  If you keep on whinging,  people, the MOD's included will take less notice and any argument you have will lack credibilty.
Joan

[darrenc]

I really do not wish to be personal here and I think Dave's idea is a good one, but Darren, you really do seem to have a problem with the MOD's and use every opportunity to have a go at them.  Many of us have behaved inappropriately at times, and if you are not happy then you report it - the MOD's are people , just like us with personalities , ideals and opnions - I have to admit that I have been in heated debate with the MOD's at times - but when they are posting - they are themselves - I like to think we are all adult enough to accept that they may make mistakes, like the rest of us.  It's  tough job that I would not want to do.  If you keep on whinging,  people, the MOD's included will take less notice and any argument you have will lack credibilty.
Joan

and you always have to say something 

am i not allowed to question the validty of claims made ?

[Jamie..]

I don't think its a bad idea, but how often does someone get banned It may be rather quiet?

How about yellow and red cards for the world cup?

[Joan J]

I am not sure how many get banned - maybe that is Dave's point - I was banned once for sending an abusive PM to another member and I have been PM'd for posting inappropriate things.  I think it is the big drama - if someone has been involved in a heated exchange and then they are not around for a bit - If they were named and the reason stated - everyone would have to accept that they broke the T & C 's.  I have to admit that I felt very ashamed and silly when I was banned and it made me think a bit more before I post- even though I still lose it sometimes.

We all know that we communicate in other places about PHO - it would definately take the speculation and rumour away and maybe the need to harness support for the wrong doer - which just creates more problems.  I am not sure if I have expressed what I really mean - but if your in the naughty book and the reason stated - that is the end of it - a bit like detention

Loretta - I am being perfectly serious and trying to add value to this debate because I want PHO to be a good place to be - I expressed my opinion to Darren, there is no need to be personal to me - this is exactly what brings things down to an unacceptable level.

[darrenc]

I want PHO to be a good place to be

and i have stated that several times myself over 4 years and still do ( just some people think or assume other things that are further from the truth )

[Soldersplash]

Quote from Joan:
"Loretta - I am being perfectly serious and trying to add value to this debate because I want PHO to be a good place to be - I expressed my opinion to Darren, there is no need to be personal to me - this is exactly what brings things down to an unacceptable level."

WTF? Did I miss something? Which bit of Loretta's post was personally direct at you?

Seriously, I'm confused....
Daniel.

[Joan J]

I will PM you - I want this thread to stay on track
Joan

[Nicky]

Quote from Joan:
"Loretta - I am being perfectly serious and trying to add value to this debate because I want PHO to be a good place to be - I expressed my opinion to Darren, there is no need to be personal to me - this is exactly what brings things down to an unacceptable level."

WTF? Did I miss something? Which bit of Loretta's post was personally direct at you?

Seriously, I'm confused....
Daniel.

I suspect it is this bit:

I respect his opinions, just as I respect those who regularly whine about their mother-in-law - tho I have to say that Darren's posts are more entertaining

[Soldersplash]

'I respect you but find someone else more entertaining.......' Doesn't seem like snipe of the century to me. 

[Tim_]

Darren, Michael has a busy life and is not always able to reply. This is not a paid for forum so cannot supply the levels of moderation/service that a financed one would. There are about 10 of us that supply free moderation which is not 24 Hr and we all do as much as we can but plainly not full time or real time, so sometimes things don't get picked up by us which is why we have a report system. Remember all the Moderation is provided free by people with real lives who are sufferer's just like you and have our good days and bad ones so do not claim to be perfect but you will find us honest.

A list of who is banned may be transparent but I do have concerns over a name and shame method as it is judgemental and we are here to support sufferer's as best we can, not to tell them off when they are naughty. 
We do and have excluded members on occasion but it is seldom and only done after repeated breeches of the rules and several short bans and after discussion among the Mods but obviously there is a limit to how many short bans we will issue, but I repeat it is very few if I try and remember there are less than 20 over the 5 years + since I've been a Mod.

The issue of who is banned and how many etc is not a great one as when you subtract the Blatant spammers and advertisers it is very few. I think the last few I have banned who were not spammers have been ones who are either harassing other members or insulting another member on the boards and that is over a period of a number of weeks but out of over 10,000 members and the 200 or so that visit daily it is a very small percentage. Dave's Idea would not generate many entries.

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Tim

[darrenc]

Darren, Michael has a busy life and is not always able to reply. This is not a paid for forum so cannot supply the levels of moderation/service that a financed one would. There are about 10 of us that supply free moderation which is not 24 Hr and we all do as much as we can but plainly not full time or real time, so sometimes things don't get picked up by us which is why we have a report system. Remember all the Moderation is provided free by people with real lives who are sufferer's just like you and have our good days and bad ones so do not claim to be perfect but you will find us honest.



Tim

i can understand that and always have done

how can you say that if you have a complaint to bring it to the administrator if it wont be replied to ? that is my question

[Tim_]

Darren, Michael has a busy life and is not always able to reply. This is not a paid for forum so cannot supply the levels of moderation/service that a financed one would. There are about 10 of us that supply free moderation which is not 24 Hr and we all do as much as we can but plainly not full time or real time, so sometimes things don't get picked up by us which is why we have a report system. Remember all the Moderation is provided free by people with real lives who are sufferer's just like you and have our good days and bad ones so do not claim to be perfect but you will find us honest.



Tim

i can understand that and always have done

how can you say that if you have a complaint to bring it to the administrator if it wont be replied to ? that is my question

Because that is the option, we are accountable to Michael. It is up to him which things he replies to not me or any of the other Mods.

[SJ]

People on the boards occasionally break the rules. That's a given.

Members occasionally get banned or reprimanded.

But we as members really don't see any transparency in the banning/moderation process.

I would like to suggest that in the interest of showing that all members are treated fairly that any reprimanded or banned member is named and if relevant the length of ban announced.  A brief reason for the ban or reprimand and how that relates to the Terms and Conditions of the Forum would also probably help assist transparency.

This would allow the membership of the forum to be able to see that everyone is treated equally within the terms and conditions.  It would also name and shame the offening member and hopefully lead to their improving of their self-moderation skills.

I would suggest a locked Sticky thread within the feedback board would be the place for it, with any offences listed for a set period of say 3 to 6 months.

I have moderated many forums myself over the last 10 years and have found this kind of system to be useful, especially in curbing the excesses of repeat offenders.

Questions:

Do the members have a right to see transparency in the banning/modding process?

Can they not accept that PHO has rules and regs and they should try and stay within them, for the good of the site?

Would naming/shaming not become a badge of courage to some repeat offenders, rather like an ASBO?

Would this 'transparency' not just create further problems? Everyone has an opinion and likes to voice it...particularly if it involves someone they like/dislike...

Those banned are 99.9% from the P forums and always for spamming/advertising. Very few people get banned for any length of time from the Chit Chat board. The bans were brought in, if I remember rightly, in a bid to curtail some members' downright unfriendly behaviour...personally, I don't like them and have never banned anyone from CC. Yes, ban spammers, but I like to think PHO members can get their act together and sort themsleves out but...

...I have no idea why, but over the last year we have seen a shift in the behaviour in CC. Sometimes, it resembles a school playground...and that is unfair on children because PHO members are adults and they really ought to have grown out of their childish tantrums and insults by now.

I do not like to treat people here like children, even when they act like them...and what you suggest just smacks of this?

Ultimately, it is Michael's decision that counts...

[Aginoth]

OK I started this so I guess I should give my opinion. Apologies for poor typing I have one arm trapped under a sleeping baby

Questions:

Do the members have a right to see transparency in the banning/modding process?

I wouldn't go so far as to say they have a right, but from my experience as a mod elsewhere this additional transparency can highlightthe background tasks of the mods and garner them respect foe fairness demonstrated.

Can they not accept that PHO has rules and regs and they should try and stay within them, for the good of the site?

Yes most can, but I feel, and apparently so do others as shown by the discussion, that this would be an added deterrent to poor behaviour

Would naming/shaming not become a badge of courage to some repeat offenders, rather like an ASBO?

I think this is unlikey except in the case of extreme trolls, who would probably deserve a life ban anyway should they treat this as a badge of honour.

Would this 'transparency' not just create further problems? Everyone has an opinion and likes to voice it...particularly if it involves someone they like/dislike...

It may / it may not, unfortunately there is no way to tell unless it is implemented anf trialed. but by keeping the banned thread locked and not allowing on forum discussion of bans this can be avoided in my experience.  If anything it flushes out the more undesirable posters and as a consequence allows the mods better control as they know who to watch.

Those banned are 99.9% from the P forums and always for spamming/advertising. Very few people get banned for any length of time from the Chit Chat board. The bans were brought in, if I remember rightly, in a bid to curtail some members' downright unfriendly behaviour...personally, I don't like them and have never banned anyone from CC. Yes, ban spammers, but I like to think PHO members can get their act together and sort themsleves out but...

Fair enough, but it would be very little work to seperate the lists those banned for Spam and Ads, and those banned for behaviour,

...I have no idea why, but over the last year we have seen a shift in the behaviour in CC. Sometimes, it resembles a school playground...and that is unfair on children because PHO members are adults and they really ought to have grown out of their childish tantrums and insults by now.

Over the last 6 years that I have been a member, there have been dozens of phases of this.  I actually think that the standard of debate on te CC board in recent months has improved; even alongside the playground spats...also there seems to have been a signifcant reduction in pointless joke posts.

I do not like to treat people here like children, even when they act like them...and what you suggest just smacks of this?

I see this as the opposite, that this proposal shows the mods treating the members as adults in that they will see there are consequences for their online actions

Ultimately, it is Michael's decision that counts...

As has been stated Michael is busy and has occasionally taken some time to respond to PMs, and apprently sometime no reply at all.  Not having a go at Michael mind, managing a forum is a thankless task at times, but this does undermine thr respect for the Mods and admin of the forum from some members.  In increasing transparency there is an opportunity to communicate slearly with the members and so increase the respect for the already respected mods.

[SJ]

Ta muchly for the coherent and in-depth reply to my comments.

I do not, in theory, disagree with your idea. In practice, I think the mods may feel it is an added 'pressure'. The onus ought not to be placed on a few people who give up their time to try and run PHO for the benefit of others, but on those who enjoy a free forum, which was set up with the express intention of adding to their quality of life living with a sh it disease like P and PA. The onus ought to be with the membership. As you say, running it is generally a thankless task...there is just something that smacks of 'head teacher is telling you off, you naughty children' about it.

I think perhaps, it is the fact that we as a an adult group should be able to think and post in a mature way. I am disappointed that this discussion has to take place...I am disappointed that a few affect the majority.

Do not think the mods et al are not considering your points...but appreciate we do not often get to speak (like once a year max!) and it is normal for such discussions to take place via email...this means it can take time.

SJ

[Aginoth]

No probs SJ.  quite pleased with the way this is being discussed

and this is the only way we realistically get to share our thoughts with the mods.

I have made it known in the past that I have the time and experience to be a mod if additional assistance is required.  as I am retired I tend to be on a lot of the time and not have it interfere with work.

[Luvvi]

Personally I am not really that interested in who is banned, the duration of the ban or the reason for it.  I hardly notice who is "missing in action" anyway 

But I have been interested in the responses so far Dave............it didn't take long for the bickering to start!

[Scratchibum]

Make them all wear orange jumpsuits!!

[Midge]

Make them all wear orange jumpsuits!!

~smacks Scratchy over head with large, heavy, blunt object~