fish oil - how much!

[Eveloftus]

Thanks Spotted owl for the info on GLA. I had never heard what you mention about EPO versus borage oil!

I have read from many sources that borage oil could be toxic to the liver, especially if taken for long periods. For example this link:

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"Borage oil contains very small amounts of alkaloid compounds called pyrrolizidine alkaloids, which can be toxic to the liver. Even using the standard dose of borage oil of a gram a day can increase the risk of liver toxicity. The way to get around this problem is to only buy borage oil that’s certified free of these alkaloids. Only buy preparations that are labeled as “PA-free.” Most commercially available borage oil supplements are free of alkaloids – but it's important to verify this. If it's unclear, ask the manufacturer for verification before purchasing"

In the past I used black currant oil because of this problem.
 
Farang, I also take curcumin, lipoic acid and coenzyme Q10 in addition to bj's formula. but I still need nbuvb to clear.

[Spotted_owl]

Thanks Spotted owl for the info on GLA. I had never heard what you mention about EPO versus borage oil!

I have read from many sources that borage oil could be toxic to the liver, especially if taken for long periods. For example this link:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

"Borage oil contains very small amounts of alkaloid compounds called pyrrolizidine alkaloids, which can be toxic to the liver. Even using the standard dose of borage oil of a gram a day can increase the risk of liver toxicity. The way to get around this problem is to only buy borage oil that’s certified free of these alkaloids. Only buy preparations that are labeled as “PA-free.” Most commercially available borage oil supplements are free of alkaloids – but it's important to verify this. If it's unclear, ask the manufacturer for verification before purchasing"

In the past I used black currant oil because of this problem.
 
Farang, I also take curcumin, lipoic acid and coenzyme Q10 in addition to bj's formula. but I still need nbuvb to clear.

Yes sir, now that you mention it, I do remember reading about that.  Daggone it, a person gets to digging through so many references, it gets interesting trying to keep it all straight.  Definitely a reason to be a little cautious with it.  For that matter, any product.  Some times it is tough to understand what all is in it.  As always, what is in the fine print might be what gets a person in the end.

[Eveloftus]

I am not a "sir", i'm a "Madam"! 

So do you think black currant oil would be a good substitution for borage oil?

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[Spotted_owl]

I am not a "sir", i'm a "Madam"! 

So do you think black currant oil would be a good substitution for borage oil?

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"Mmmph..."  <Tough to talk with one's foot in one's mouth> [color me embarassed]

Oops, but then again most of yesterday seemed like that in one way or another.  Ever hear of a butter side down day?  That was me all day yesterday.

I would certainly think that black currant should work as well as borage, perhaps even better.  All of the oils seem to have a little different inherent formulation.  What I've read of Black currant sure sounds good to me.  May give it a try myself.

Lookin' forward to hearing good things!

[farang]

I have been reading about the omega oils (fatty acids) that we normally ingest in our diets, and that we tend to eat quite a lot of food with omega-6.  The ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 in our food seems to be high, perhaps up to 15:1. 
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Whilst many specialists now suggest a ratio around 4:1 to be more beneficial.  Thus we can increase intake of omega-3 or reduce intake of omega-6.  Since omega-6 oils seem to be present in much 'modern' food, supplement with omega-3 is necessary. 

I am wondering a bit about supplementing with omega-6, like borage seed oil or black currant seed oil.  This will actually skew the balance in the wrong direction, isn't it? 
It's not easy to find the right balance 

[Spotted_owl]

I have been reading about the omega oils (fatty acids) that we normally ingest in our diets, and that we tend to eat quite a lot of food with omega-6.  The ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 in our food seems to be high, perhaps up to 15:1. 
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Whilst many specialists now suggest a ratio around 4:1 to be more beneficial.  Thus we can increase intake of omega-3 or reduce intake of omega-6.  Since omega-6 oils seem to be present in much 'modern' food, supplement with omega-3 is necessary. 

I am wondering a bit about supplementing with omega-6, like borage seed oil or black currant seed oil.  This will actually skew the balance in the wrong direction, isn't it? 
It's not easy to find the right balance 

A good point, but what we were discussing earlier rose from Eve mentioning that fish oil affected her depression adversely and that ibuprofen helped it.  We were talking about epa/dha balances and that it might be beneficial to raise EPA.  But it might also be beneficial in the case of depression to raise the GLA levels because there is some evidence that Depression might be linked to defiency in PGE1, which the body generates by converting GLA.  So one of the things a person has to look at in the discussion of how much omega3 or omega6 they have is to look at what form it takes.  Not all omega-6 fatty acids behave the same.

Linoleic acid and arachidonic acid (AA) tend to be unhealthy because they promote inflammation. GLA, on the other hand, may actually reduce inflammation.
Much of the GLA taken as a supplement is converted to a substance called DGLA that fights inflammation. Having enough of certain nutrients in the body (including magnesium, zinc, and vitamins C, B3, and B6) helps promote the conversion of GLA to DGLA.

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So really it is not about numbers as such, the ratio of Omega3 vs Omega6 but rather about usable and / or beneficial forms of each and either.  And if a person is low in delta-6-desaturase which is a key element in the conversion of GLA, then a person may need to boost the gla in order to gain the benefit from it.

In anyone, it is a juggling match to find what works for any one person with the additional drawback that it is a slow process and takes time for the improvements to show.  No over night changes, more like over week changes or over month changes.

[elgrande]

Good to see a few responses gathering on this topic as I think its a very interesting one. Anyway I have added the milk thistle (brand noted on earlier post) and have been keeping an eye on things over the past 10 or so days. The natural route always takes time and patience however I'm hoping that I might have something to report over the coming months. My overall regime at the moment is the following -

1 x multivitamin, mineral and probiotic capsule
2000iu of vitamin D3
200mg of chelated magnesium
50mg of chelated zinc
1000mg of milk thistle soft gel
1 tablespoon of liquid flax oil
1 tablespoon of liquid fish oil

and 1 ibuprofen every 2 days

[Spotted_owl]

Good to see a few responses gathering on this topic as I think its a very interesting one. Anyway I have added the milk thistle (brand noted on earlier post) and have been keeping an eye on things over the past 10 or so days. The natural route always takes time and patience however I'm hoping that I might have something to report over the coming months. My overall regime at the moment is the following -

1 x multivitamin, mineral and probiotic capsule
2000iu of vitamin D3
200mg of chelated magnesium
50mg of chelated zinc
1000mg of milk thistle soft gel
1 tablespoon of liquid flax oil
1 tablespoon of liquid fish oil

and 1 ibuprofen every 2 days

Just curious if you have seen any improvement.

I felt I would add an update to my own condition.  The last of the small plaques have gone away.  All I have left to recover from is a lot of discolored skin and my fingernails.  My nails seem to be growing out normally.

[elgrande]

Good to see a few responses gathering on this topic as I think its a very interesting one. Anyway I have added the milk thistle (brand noted on earlier post) and have been keeping an eye on things over the past 10 or so days. The natural route always takes time and patience however I'm hoping that I might have something to report over the coming months. My overall regime at the moment is the following -

1 x multivitamin, mineral and probiotic capsule
2000iu of vitamin D3
200mg of chelated magnesium
50mg of chelated zinc
1000mg of milk thistle soft gel
1 tablespoon of liquid flax oil
1 tablespoon of liquid fish oil

and 1 ibuprofen every 2 days

Just curious if you have seen any improvement.

I felt I would add an update to my own condition.  The last of the small plaques have gone away.  All I have left to recover from is a lot of discolored skin and my fingernails.  My nails seem to be growing out normally.

Nothing really to report so far. Can't say I've notcied any changes although I do intend to keep it going for at least 6 months to give it time. How long before you started seeing changes?

[Spotted_owl]

...

Nothing really to report so far. Can't say I've notcied any changes although I do intend to keep it going for at least 6 months to give it time. How long before you started seeing changes?

It took me three months to finally clear the last of the small plaque areas that were located on my lower legs.

I've long had minor plaque problems on my legs between my ankles and my knees.  They would show up and take a month or more to fade away.  As some were fading, new ones were starting, so it was a sort of ongoing situation where there was seldom any time I was totally clear of the plaques.  It was just that they were small and localized without much of any lesions so it was not too tough to put up with them.  They didn't really bother me much.

My clearing of the big blow up was sort of in reverse order.  The areas affected last cleared first so it took longer to clear the areas that had been there longer, the areas that came on first.  It started from my legs and went upwards.  The clearing started in my chest area and arms and went downwards.  So I think six months or so is a very reasonable expectation.  I have a feeling that the longer an area has been subject to P, the longer it takes to get straightened back out.  Just a gut feeling on my part.

I saw improvement in the areas that had recently been affected after about ten days.  It was very minor at first and tough to tell if there actually was any improvement or if it was just wishful thinking.  After about ten days, I had a good solid reduction in the amount of skin I was shedding, so it gave me incentive to continue.  The thing is my blow up went bad so fast that any improvement was pretty obvious.  Knowing that something seems to be working makes it a lot easier to stick with it for an extended period of time.  If I had just the old plaque areas on my legs to go by, it was a good solid two months before I saw anything happening there.  I would have probably quit because there was no apparent improvement there.