Author Topic: vitamin d/ibuprofen treatment  (Read 605538 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline bjm

Re: vitamin d/ibuprofen treatment
« Reply #3820 on: March 20, 2010, 04:09:41 AM »
hi beat, ..i wish it was accurate ...just trying to make some sense of it like the rest...this is a complex problem ..our advantage with P  is we can experiment in a small personal way and note any changes....then if we do see some effect or benefit, we can go back and look through the literature for a connection..kind of reverse engineer it..

the enteric coated peppermint or the altoids i think are important...The menthol in the peppermint is a Ca channel blocker which  relaxes smooth muscle, reduces glucose uptake, increases bile flow..and may alter the gut wall effecting permeability by these effects and with it inflammation and immune response.. ...

The small intestine is anything but small ..a good 6-9 meters long..so theres plenty of area for inflammation..the peppermint can help with that.. also, the serum menthol peaks at about 1-2 hours..indicating the  the menthol is readily absorbed and broken down with a half life of two hours...
  there is some literature suggesting high test D...calcitriol some of which we make in the skin(as well as cells throughout the body when we get adequate D). This high test form of D and menthol have an anti proliferative effect in prostate cells..its a stretch but possible this phenomena includes the skin.....

There is definitely something going on..then we have to ask ourselves..if there is a benefit, does it come from the intestinal effect,  high serum levels throughout the day or both including a reaction with the Calcitrol from sunlight
The Th1/th2 balance is another thing to look at as well as the ll37 peptide role....I'm dosing with vitamin C in relation to both...as it decreases TH2...which is implicated in psa..but then increases TH1 which is implicated in plaque and guttate psoriasis....meanwhile, it interferes with ll37 pathway and may reduce inflammation  ..thats another  can of worms...  ::)


bj

« Last Edit: March 20, 2010, 02:15:38 PM by bjm »

Offline avadoro

Re: vitamin d/ibuprofen treatment
« Reply #3821 on: March 20, 2010, 10:12:26 AM »
Bjm, could you comment this publication/drug information ?

People who take nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) (other than aspirin) such as ibuprofen may have a higher risk of having a heart attack or a stroke than people who do not take these medications. These events may happen without warning and may cause death. This risk may be higher for people who take NSAIDs for a long time. Tell your doctor if you or anyone in your family has or has ever had heart disease, a heart attack, or a stroke;if you smoke;and if you have or have ever had high cholesterol, high blood pressure, or diabetes. Get emergency medical help right away if you experience any of the following symptoms: chest pain, shortness of breath, weakness in one part or side of the body, or slurred speech.

If you will be undergoing a coronary artery bypass graft (CABG; a type of heart surgery), you should not take ibuprofen right before or right after the surgery.


NSAIDs such as ibuprofen may cause ulcers, bleeding, or holes in the stomach or intestine. These problems may develop at any time during treatment, may happen without warning symptoms, and may cause death. The risk may be higher for people who take NSAIDs for a long time, are older in age, have poor health, or who drink three or more alcoholic drinks per day while taking ibuprofen. Tell your doctor if you take any of the following medications: anticoagulants ('blood thinners') such as warfarin (Coumadin); aspirin; other NSAIDs such as ketoprofen (Orudis KT, Actron) and naproxen (Aleve, Naprosyn); or oral steroids such as dexamethasone (Decadron, Dexone), methylprednisolone (Medrol), and prednisone (Deltasone). Also tell your doctor if you have or have ever had ulcers, bleeding in your stomach or intestines, or other bleeding disorders. If you experience any of the following symptoms, stop taking ibuprofen and call your doctor: stomach pain, heartburn, vomit that is bloody or looks like coffee grounds, blood in the stool, or black and tarry stools.

Keep all appointments with your doctor and the laboratory. Your doctor will monitor your symptoms carefully and will probably order certain tests to check your body's response to ibuprofen. Be sure to tell your doctor how you are feeling so that your doctor can prescribe the right amount of medication to treat your condition with the lowest risk of serious side effects.

Your doctor or pharmacist will give you the manufacturer's patient information sheet (Medication Guide) when you begin treatment with prescription ibuprofen and each time you refill your prescription. Read the information carefully and ask your doctor or pharmacist if you have any questions. You can also visit the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) website (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login) or the manufacturer's website to obtain the Medication Guide.


You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
updated formula in English
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Offline bjm

Re: vitamin d/ibuprofen treatment
« Reply #3822 on: March 20, 2010, 01:32:39 PM »
hi avadoro.. ... ...from three weeks ago in this thread...

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

again..if its a concern or a problem then simply don't take it...perhaps something else will suffice.
 
hope this helps...bj

 

« Last Edit: March 20, 2010, 02:01:56 PM by bjm »

Offline Eveloftus

  • Forum God
  • ******
  • Posts: 1494
  • Gender: Female
  • Member of the UK Psoriasis Help Forum
  • View Gallery
Re: vitamin d/ibuprofen treatment
« Reply #3823 on: March 21, 2010, 10:13:01 PM »
 
Interesting study, what I found interesting is that for levels above 43 ng/ml of vit D there is no added benefit as far as CVD (but of course we know that for other conditions like cancer a higher level would be optimal):


Death, CVD Risk Declines in People Who "Normalize" Vitamin-D Levels


March 18, 2010 (Atlanta, Georgia) — Adding heft to the hypothesis that vitamin-D deficiency is linked to cardiovascular disease, a new study has found that people with low vitamin-D levels who managed to normalize their levels were significantly less likely to develop cardiovascular events over up to six years of follow-up.

The study was presented as a poster by Dr Tami L Bair (Intermountain Medical Center Heart Institute, Murray, UT) earlier this week at the American College of Cardiology (ACC) 2010 Scientific Sessions.

According to coauthor Dr Joseph B Muhlestein (Intermountain Medical Center Heart Institute), the study looked at baseline and subsequent vitamin-D levels in 9491 subjects with known vitamin-D deficiency, rechecked their vitamin D, then compared subsequent rates of death, coronary artery disease, MI, heart failure, stroke, and renal failure among those who managed to bring up their vitamin-D levels with those who remained vitamin-D deficient. A cut point of <30 ng/mL was used to define vitamin-D deficiency.

"This wasn't a randomized trial, but all of these patients started with low vitamin D, and then the question is, if they treated their vitamin D, did it have an effect? We don't know what they did . . . the presumption is that they were told their vitamin D was low, then started supplementation or got their swimsuit out and went into the sun a lot to treat it."

Getting to Normal

After a mean of one-year of follow-up, those who had normalized their vitamin-D levels were significantly less likely to have died, developed heart failure, or developed coronary artery disease. A composite end point, looking at all outcomes combined, showed a highly statistically significant reduction among those with normalized vitamin-D levels.

Muhlestein drew particular attention to the 30% reduced risk of death in the normalized vitamin-D group. "A 30% reduction in risk is about the same you could hope to get from taking a statin or treating your blood pressure, so we thought it was certainly promising. It doesn't eliminate the need for a real randomized trial, although I'm trying to figure out a good way to do one."

There are a number of vitamin-D trials under way, most notably VITAL, a National Institutes of Health (NIH) study, launched in January.

But Muhlestein is concerned that the NIH trial may come up empty-handed for two reasons. For one, the trial, he says, is not measuring baseline levels or checking whether patients actually reach the optimal vitamin-D range in the intervention arm. "I can see why they aren't [measuring vitamin D at baseline], because if they find vitamin D is deficient is it ethical to say, 'I want you to stay vitamin-D deficient'?"

Vitamin-D deficiency is already known to increase the risks of skeletal disease, he notes. But without knowing if participants actually normalize their levels, it will be impossible to link normalization with an effect on events.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2010, 10:20:37 PM by Eveloftus »

Offline Eveloftus

  • Forum God
  • ******
  • Posts: 1494
  • Gender: Female
  • Member of the UK Psoriasis Help Forum
  • View Gallery
Re: vitamin d/ibuprofen treatment
« Reply #3824 on: March 21, 2010, 10:15:06 PM »

His second concern is with the dose chosen in VITAL: 2000 international units (IU) per day. "What I've found is that there are lots of my patients who don't become normalized with 2000 units, so 2000 units may not be enough to treat the really deficient patients."

But What's Normal?

In fact, Muhlestein and colleagues conducted a second study, also presented as a poster during the ACC meeting, trying to identify the optimal level of vitamin D by categorizing over 31 000 patients into three levels of vitamin D. When those levels were then linked to rates of 10 adverse outcomes (most of them cardiovascular), the authors demonstrated decreasing risk of adverse outcomes with increasing vitamin-D levels, with a vitamin D level >43 ng/mL to be the cutoff point for optimal.

Currently, they point out, a level of 30 ng/ML is considered "normal"--that cut point may be too low, based on their analysis.

But also of note, "above 43 ng/mL there was no added benefit," Muhlestein observed. "So if your level was 70 ng/mL, you were good, but you weren't any better than if [your level] was 43 ng/mL."

As for whether vitamin D can be too high, Muhlestein noted that there are problems with vitamin-D toxicities typically associated with hypercalcemia, but these tend to arise in people with levels higher than 100 ng/mL, and many people believe the level must be well over 150 ng/mL. "The only way I know of that people can get vitamin D that high is by overdosing on prescription vitamin D, which is supposed to be taken once a week. If someone were to make a mistake and take it once per day, they might get vitamin-D toxicity."

The findings from both studies have convinced Muhlestein that vitamin-D deficiency is worth treating, but he urges physicians to make sure they check to see what a patient's vitamin-D levels are to begin with and to adjust the dose accordingly. Individualization is essential, he noted, which is one reason he's worried about the blanket 2000-IU approach being used in VITAL.

"Effective dose varies from patient to patient, which is one of the problems with the NIH trial. No one is going to become toxic on 2000 IU per day, but there will be lots who are at the highest risk who are not going to become normalized."
[CLOSE WINDOW]
Authors and Disclosures
Journalist
Shelley Wood


Offline Chappers_27

Re: vitamin d/ibuprofen treatment
« Reply #3825 on: March 22, 2010, 09:29:59 AM »
Hi BJ

I have a nagging question in my mind. You have mentioned on several posts that we with psoriasis have high levels of a 'peptide' and that supplementing with Vit D increases this peptide.

However, when I go out in the sun (e.g. 3 weeks in the dead sea) and get large doses of Vit D; I don't get the redness associated with increased peptide. In fact, I clear completely.

So, my question to you and the wider psoriasis / Vit D community, is:

Is there a metabolic difference between Vit D ingested and Vit D taken through the skin?

This is important as it might be much more effective for psoriasis patients simply to go on holiday to somewhere sunny for 2 weeks in December (or going every 3 months) and getting a nice big reserve rather than taking Vit D as supplements.

Are you aware of any studies analysing the difference between Vit D through radiation as opposed to supplementation? [I will search....]

Chappers

Offline coggers

Re: vitamin d/ibuprofen treatment
« Reply #3826 on: March 22, 2010, 10:05:35 AM »
Hi Chappers

Think it was Vieth or Hollick said somewhere that there this no chemical difference between Vit D3 that is produced in the skin cf Vit D3 obtained through supplements.  However what he did go on to say was that he didnt know what other chemicals / reactions were being produced / going on in the skin when the combination of UVA/UVB hits the skin and results in the production of the D3.  There is clearly something else going on - tanning for one.  Believe I have seen various quotes saying that sunshine is also an immunosuppresant, (very helpful for us with Ps), but question is why - is it the D3 production or is some other chemical reaction going on with the UVA that overcomes the redness that BJ oft quotes with high D3 supplementation.

Tanning is one process and that involves the production of  melanin and restructuring of the skin, think BJ of quotes the movement of the melanocytes.

My 30 years experience of Ps says that sunshine has a very positive impact on my Ps, is it the Vit D or merely the sunshine, or more plausibly both.  Id say getting the D3 supplementation plus the UVA/UVB light I got at the tanning salon over the winter has had the desired effect on my legs and arms, but a less +ve impact on my torso.  I regularly used to go to the Canaries for Christmas or at least that time of the year, yes it was a very positive session on my Ps.  Diet change too which I didnt realise also had an impact.  However it was never sustained very long but definately had a +ve impact but that I now know was down to diet/stress being my trigger.  One thing I didnt realise was that while I got a good tan in these sessions I used to slap on the 15 spf and that virtually elminates UVB!  Now Im planning on a carefully controlled ten minute (or there abouts) lotion free session to get the full benefit of the full spectrum, taking care of course not too burn which I will be monitoring very carefully.  Im planning to go to Egypt for a week for a bit of windsurfing early April.

Anyway managed to get a bit of real sunlight this weekend so if previous history is to be repeated my Ps should start to see a further improvement over the coming months.

Cheers Cogs

Offline Guy

Re: vitamin d/ibuprofen treatment
« Reply #3827 on: March 22, 2010, 11:12:31 AM »
An update.

At the end of January my p was pretty widespread.  Mostly smallish guttate patches on torso (front and back), arms, buttocks and legs (worst on my calves).  

I've been on the formula since the beginning of February.  (D3, Ibuprofen, Peppermint Oil tabs, fish oil and some altoids)

Since the first week of March I've also been on a diet that has cut out gluten, nightshades and dairy.  I haven't been completely strict  - but pretty good  - with probably 98% of my intake avoiding these foods.

I also have a UVB sunbed that I have used really sparingly (twice a week for about 3 mins each side).

The results have been impressive.  My torso (front and back) is practically clear as are my buttocks.  My arms are almost clear and my legs are much improved.

The diet felt like a drag to start with but as you get used to finding alternatives to bread and pasta it becomes easier.  I've felt much "lighter" all around and have lost a bit of weight (not sure I want to lose any more though).

Oh and I am using Exorex once a day.  I was also using Trimovate under my arms for flexural p once a day but I've found that in the last 3 weeks I don't have to use this more than twice a week now.

Guy  :)

« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 11:14:36 AM by Guy »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Offline Eveloftus

  • Forum God
  • ******
  • Posts: 1494
  • Gender: Female
  • Member of the UK Psoriasis Help Forum
  • View Gallery
Re: vitamin d/ibuprofen treatment
« Reply #3828 on: March 22, 2010, 04:23:38 PM »
Yea for the passing of the health care reform! :)

Offline beat-the-p

  • Forum God
  • ******
  • Posts: 534
  • Gender: Male
  • Where's the sunshine at?
  • View Gallery
Re: vitamin d/ibuprofen treatment
« Reply #3829 on: March 23, 2010, 01:36:47 AM »
Hi bj, thanks again for the reply...yeah, definately trying to reverse engineer things to try to find improvements. You have been awesome from that respect, helping so many with a solid starting point & sharing the formula.

Its interesting what you mentioned about th2 cytokines being involved in psa, have you got any more info on this bj? The D3 might be a bad idea in larger amounts after all if this is the case? Its difficult trying to improve things in a safe alternative way, the vit C being a prime example...does good for one thing but maybe works against another, thats where other things need to be added to cancel out any bad from the good...real trial & error as you know the best!! Vit C is good for reducing il-6 apparently & possibly tnf. I think if we just new the main players i.e. il-6 or il-8 we would do a lot better in this self treatment. Its fairly obvious from the current line of drugs that tnf is a really big player that needs to be reduced, so that is my current alternative stratergy, but hard to find alternatives that decrease tnf, some studies say d3 does in certain cells & others say it up regulates it in certain cells.

So far I have found studies suggesting Vit D3, Vit C, curcumin, MSN, Resveratrol, tomato, devil's claw, milk thistle, Alpha-lipoic acid, cetirizine, dhea, epa & fish oil can all reduce tnf.

I just found this on black pepper You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

And this about cat's claw....very interesting You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

I think what most of these have in common is they are antioxidants. Could be a reason the guys doing the raw juice are having some success? Interestingly one of the drugs I was offered 'sulphasalazine' looks to be a potent antioxidant & tnf inhibiter...this could perhaps be its mode of action in treating pa as well as healing the gut?

Thanks again for your help bj

beat